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#171025
+1 Great suggestion, this can save a lot of votes from being "lost", while adding real politics.

I think there should be no party discipline so when passing bills party members don't need to vote the same as their party leader.
That’s what I intend to do.
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By Burnt
#171026
how is the vote system flawed, a poll is a solid representation of democracy. You are suggesting that we stop getting mayors and instead employ councils: wouldn't ths take 10x time and flaws? wouldnt' it give way for the most corrupt and biased people to be in charge most of the time? one could easily gather a group like BMC and eventually put most of its influence in a council, because as we have seen before, BMC has far enough influence to pick who will be mayor already, this only results in the same people being in charge.

Also despite being complicated, all i can picture is that normal players will see it and just ignore it due to how extensive it is, you know the same way long paragraphs scare players to the point where they dont read the rules because it would traumatize them, oh lords don't make them read those essays!!!!

astronomically fat -1
You clearly haven't read the entire document. First, a poll is incredibly flawed unless it's just 2 candidates running. Having any more than that will lead to all sorts of problems such as vote splitting. Second, I quite literally said mayors will still be a thing. Third, if the BMC influences politics then isn't it just RP? Wouldn't criminals IRL want to influence politics as much as they can? BMC has successfully won the mayorship multiple times.

Also, the system is much more complicated than the current one. But it fixes many problems the current one has and adds a new layer onto RP. Players will not have to 'read an essay' because it wouldn't be an entire fucking essay.

In conclusion, if you were to take the time to properly read the document and not skim over I'd be happy to respond to criticisms in a much nicer manner but your complete and utter ignorance of what is actually written is astoundingly clear.
I’m agreeing with Banan here. I did read the whole thing and it’s an interesting idea, but it would have many more flaws than our current system. You’ve also stated that there are many flaws, but never went into detail as to how. Corruption is part of RP and we have a system to demote corrupt mayors so long as there is sufficient evidence. Your idea wouldn’t work on PH RP, just think of lawyers and Judges, it’s a simple system thought to increase RP, but in the end it’s died out. There isn’t enough good to evil, the ratio is too poor, and the council as banan said would most likely always have a corrupt influence.

Think of the playerbase as well and what banan said, some people hardly take the time to read the rules, let alone use the forums. A discord vote would be 10x more flawed than Forums as we can check everything and make sure all profiles fit the voting requirements and have no outside influence from PvPers who don’t even touch RP. There’s flaws with both, your idea would remove current flaws and replace them with different ones.

-1 the system we’ve used for 3 years works just fine for our way of things.

If you want to reform anything add things to mayor, like allowing him to do arrests, or give pardons.
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#171030
I’m agreeing with Banan here. I did read the whole thing and it’s an interesting idea, but it would have many more flaws than our current system. You’ve also stated that there are many flaws, but never went into detail as to how. Corruption is part of RP and we have a system to demote corrupt mayors so long as there is sufficient evidence. Your idea wouldn’t work on PH RP, just think of lawyers and Judges, it’s a simple system thought to increase RP, but in the end it’s died out. There isn’t enough good to evil, the ratio is too poor, and the council as banan said would most likely always have a corrupt influence.

Think of the playerbase as well and what banan said, some people hardly take the time to read the rules, let alone use the forums. A discord vote would be 10x more flawed than Forums as we can check everything and make sure all profiles fit the voting requirements and have no outside influence from PvPers who don’t even touch RP. There’s flaws with both, your idea would remove current flaws and replace them with different ones.

-1 the system we’ve used for 3 years works just fine for our way of things.

If you want to reform anything add things to mayor, like allowing him to do arrests, or give pardons.
First of all where in the document did I say it’d be a Discord vote for elections, especially when I stated it’d be the same style post as mayor ballots but with parties this time.
And also, there is no defined way to demote corrupt mayors. Unless you could find me a rule about it, I’m fairly convinced the PH Rules do not cover this. However, it may be better to make the requirements to demote councillors lower with a valid arrest being the evidence for a serious crime.

In addition, at the end of the document I said that normal players wouldn’t need to read these new rules since they probably won’t affect their experience. Only players interested in running or RP Admins would, and maybe cops who want to demote corrupt councillors.

And as well as that, I believe a council will handle corruption better than a single mayor. If say BMC put a puppet into the council and they somehow won, then players will be able to see what they’re saying in the council, how they vote on bills and learn of their true intentions.
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By Helena
#171031
And also, there is no defined way to demote corrupt mayors. Unless you could find me a rule about it, I’m fairly convinced the PH Rules do not cover this. However, it may be better to make the requirements to demote councillors lower with a valid arrest being the evidence for a serious crime.
No one has ever come up with a way to demote a mayor, most we have seen is "X mayor exposed" and after this you never see people asking admins about this, or no one really ever cares enough to ask about this.
In addition, at the end of the document I said that normal players wouldn’t need to read these new rules since they probably won’t affect their experience. Only players interested in running or RP Admins would, and maybe cops who want to demote corrupt councillors.
Then the whole suggestion is just based on the fact that a very few people will enjoy and care about it. if it doesnt affect the experience of normal players and is just made for the most dedicated players or those that actually take the time to go through the whole thing, how does it improve roleplay?
By ZERO
#171033
I'm going to be real here. This is a very cool idea. I love how you clearly thought this out and spent time developing this idea, but there are flaws that I see. I think that the council members' time on the council is too short. One month is too short to produce anything effective. I suggest that Council Members are on the Council for at least three months. The Mayors are instead only Mayor for one month. The Council can vote for keeping the Mayor next time or remove him. Now, this is what I thought of while reading the percentages and party systems. Hitler. I thought of Hitler and the Nazi Party. That's all I'm going to say.
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By Burnt
#171034
I’m agreeing with Banan here. I did read the whole thing and it’s an interesting idea, but it would have many more flaws than our current system. You’ve also stated that there are many flaws, but never went into detail as to how. Corruption is part of RP and we have a system to demote corrupt mayors so long as there is sufficient evidence. Your idea wouldn’t work on PH RP, just think of lawyers and Judges, it’s a simple system thought to increase RP, but in the end it’s died out. There isn’t enough good to evil, the ratio is too poor, and the council as banan said would most likely always have a corrupt influence.

Think of the playerbase as well and what banan said, some people hardly take the time to read the rules, let alone use the forums. A discord vote would be 10x more flawed than Forums as we can check everything and make sure all profiles fit the voting requirements and have no outside influence from PvPers who don’t even touch RP. There’s flaws with both, your idea would remove current flaws and replace them with different ones.

-1 the system we’ve used for 3 years works just fine for our way of things.

If you want to reform anything add things to mayor, like allowing him to do arrests, or give pardons.
First of all where in the document did I say it’d be a Discord vote for elections, especially when I stated it’d be the same style post as mayor ballots but with parties this time.
And also, there is no defined way to demote corrupt mayors. Unless you could find me a rule about it, I’m fairly convinced the PH Rules do not cover this. However, it may be better to make the requirements to demote councillors lower with a valid arrest being the evidence for a serious crime.

In addition, at the end of the document I said that normal players wouldn’t need to read these new rules since they probably won’t affect their experience. Only players interested in running or RP Admins would, and maybe cops who want to demote corrupt councillors.

And as well as that, I believe a council will handle corruption better than a single mayor. If say BMC put a puppet into the council and they somehow won, then players will be able to see what they’re saying in the council, how they vote on bills and learn of their true intentions.
And here you took bits and pieces as well, how do you plan on getting over the barrier that Judge and Lawyer couldn’t? Not even main players or police achieve these without votes of noobs. You need new players to understand for anything to work. The fact that you’re stating you don’t need normal players is as ridiculous as a unicorn in your house.

It’s a great idea as stated, but it wouldn’t work any better than our current mayor system. Especially with no active or big police groups.

Until you can come back and answer how you plan on making it get over the barrier, when something as simple as judge and court cases couldn’t and are hardly seen at all, I’m sticking with a -1

You ignored the other details I’ve stated, as well as stating this wouldn’t effect normal players yet it would still need their votes, and they’d have to be in on it. Mayor effects everyone with the laws they create, how would this change that?

As stated, our system has flaws, but this would create many many more.

Last thing, Police officer tab number 5 nobody is above the laws, if the crime committed is serious enough (with evidence) they may be stripped of their role. Mayor is a police role and much as captains or others can be demoted if found being corrupt.
User avatar
By Liona
#171035
-1

1) Mayors are cool
2) Councils involve more corruption and bigger gays
3) Mayors are really fucking cool
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By pvt amar
#171038
As the suggestion is long and the forums are annoying to format, I've used a Google Document to make this suggestion.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Fyg ... sp=sharing

I'd like to hear criticisms or suggestions for the idea. I know it's very big for Pandahut, but I think it's time Mayor is reformed.
bruh this is the most complicated and stupid thing ive ever read, what the fuck is wrong with a poll?
#171039
I have a idea, fucking have parties that a candidate has, like liona represents communism or Banan BananUnion with each party having a small group that will help the mayor govern idk
#171041
Since some people are saying how the current system isn't flawed, let me tell you a bit of electoral theory as to why it is pretty much the worst system of voting:

The spoiler effect is a major problem in this voting system PH uses (aka First-Past-The-Post). Say 3 candidates are running (A, B, C) and A and B are running for very similar things and C is running for something different. People who support the same things as A and B have to pick the candidate with the best chance of winning even if they prefer one over the other. Let's say A is a well known player, but B is very likeable and has pretty good ideas and has some loyal supporters, but isn't as well known. A lot of people will vote for A because they like A the most BUT some who like B more will vote for A since A is more likely to win. This is also known as vote splitting. If the voters of A and B are very split and both get quite a bit of support, C can still win even though more voters may dislike C. For further reading on this, check this page on Wikipedia out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_effect

Now, to answer some things:
And also, there is no defined way to demote corrupt mayors. Unless you could find me a rule about it, I’m fairly convinced the PH Rules do not cover this. However, it may be better to make the requirements to demote councillors lower with a valid arrest being the evidence for a serious crime.
No one has ever come up with a way to demote a mayor, most we have seen is "X mayor exposed" and after this you never see people asking admins about this, or no one really ever cares enough to ask about this.
In addition, at the end of the document I said that normal players wouldn’t need to read these new rules since they probably won’t affect their experience. Only players interested in running or RP Admins would, and maybe cops who want to demote corrupt councillors.
Then the whole suggestion is just based on the fact that a very few people will enjoy and care about it. if it doesnt affect the experience of normal players and is just made for the most dedicated players or those that actually take the time to go through the whole thing, how does it improve roleplay?
Alright, fair point with the first. Nobody has asked yet. I'd say this is problematic since it leaves an undefined system that could be biased in demotions.

Now, you state that very few people will enjoy the system. I'll take that as very few people will want to participate in the system. I also had that concern as well. However, on 10's election registration post as of now has 4 candidates running. I believe that this may indicate people are more reluctant to want to be part of the political side of PH. But I think the reason is because the system makes it basically impossible for smaller or lesser known candidates to actually win anything. In a council, the small candidate may have a chance of getting a seat and therefore may get to actually impact things. I believe that this will now make more people want to participate, but, as I said at the end of the document, time will only tell since you can't predict with certainty.
I'm going to be real here. This is a very cool idea. I love how you clearly thought this out and spent time developing this idea, but there are flaws that I see. I think that the council members' time on the council is too short. One month is too short to produce anything effective. I suggest that Council Members are on the Council for at least three months. The Mayors are instead only Mayor for one month. The Council can vote for keeping the Mayor next time or remove him. Now, this is what I thought of while reading the percentages and party systems. Hitler. I thought of Hitler and the Nazi Party. That's all I'm going to say.
I think a compromise may be the best option. I, personally, would like candidates to be able to spend more time on the council, but the problem is that when you leave people in a spot where they can't really be touched for too long, they will use that power badly. The solution I think would be to have staggered terms which essentially means half of the council (or as close to half) is elected every month. The councillors would have 2-month terms, the only difference is that the elections are every month for one half.
And here you took bits and pieces as well, how do you plan on getting over the barrier that Judge and Lawyer couldn’t? Not even main players or police achieve these without votes of noobs. You need new players to understand for anything to work. The fact that you’re stating you don’t need normal players is as ridiculous as a unicorn in your house.

It’s a great idea as stated, but it wouldn’t work any better than our current mayor system. Especially with no active or big police groups.

Until you can come back and answer how you plan on making it get over the barrier, when something as simple as judge and court cases couldn’t and are hardly seen at all, I’m sticking with a -1

You ignored the other details I’ve stated, as well as stating this wouldn’t effect normal players yet it would still need their votes, and they’d have to be in on it. Mayor effects everyone with the laws they create, how would this change that?

As stated, our system has flaws, but this would create many many more.

Last thing, Police officer tab number 5 nobody is above the laws, if the crime committed is serious enough (with evidence) they may be stripped of their role. Mayor is a police role and much as captains or others can be demoted if found being corrupt.
Alright so let's start from the top. Looking at the outcome of judge and lawyer, I see a few problems that probably caused it to fail. First would be how lawyer is its own role which has iffy rules (such as if players need a lawyer in a case or not). Next would be the requirements for judge, which is (as I remember) 40 hours of lawyer. This is why I think that system failed. Nobody wants to spend 40 hours on a role that is dependent on another just to get that role. I think if judge started off as a stackable role and the lawyer requirement was lifted, it would have been more used (plus lowering the votes). On top of that, lawyer is basically useless but is sort of required to do a case and is required to get judge. That is what I think made judge and lawyer a mess.

So how do I plan on getting over the barrier judge and lawyer couldn't? Learn from the mistakes it made when being implemented. If a councillor role is added, make it stackable since people should be able to keep their other role so it isn't boring. Other than that, the failures of judge/lawyer can't really be applied to my system as they had problems unique to that system (such as judge requiring tonnes of votes and the whole 40 hours of lawyer thing).

I do see people bringing up how normal players won't understand/care about the system and thus won't participate. As I've stated, normal players will vote for who they want regardless of if they know how it works. To them, it's just like any other election. Do players NEED to understand the details to want to vote? I don't think so since most of the details affect councillors. If we compare it to elections in countries, people will still vote even if they don't exactly know how the system of governance works. To them, they just want the party that has their beliefs to win. They won't care about how laws are passed. If your suggestion is to simplify the system, that probably could work.

Alright, so you do make a good point about police groups. Without a good/active police presence, the system won't work well. I agree. Hopefully, if PH becomes more active (such as when UII is fully released), the system could be implemented. I remember a while back in rpstaff where Miku was talking a bit about doing some things about the political side of PH but wanted to wait until UII. That's what I remember, anyway.

Next, you say this would create flaws. Of course, it would, everything has flaws. But the flaws of this system are not as bad as the ones of the current system. Sure, the current system 'works', but it doesn't work very well. Problems such as mayors having free reign over the entire town balance and having iffy impeachment laws (I think Miku stated the things in the role tabs are not binding).

Onto corruption, which is definitely an issue and a possible flaw of my system. It's complicated. Under pretty much any system, a mayor could definitely be paid off or elected on lies. Paying off mayors is pretty much impossible to expose in most circumstances, and being elected for things you say you'll do but don't is also an issue that is hard to fix. In my system, I'm attempting to make it so the mayor can be held directly accountable to more people and could lead to a situation where a mayor who doesn't do the things they promised to do is defeated in a motion of no confidence for instance. The only way to remove corruption is to remove politics from PH which I'm pretty sure nobody wants to do.
-1

1) Mayors are cool
2) Councils involve more corruption and bigger gays
3) Mayors are really fucking cool
1) Mayors are still a thing under my system
2) Mayors also have corruption, but a council could solve corruption better than having a single mayor.
3) Read 1.
bruh this is the most complicated and stupid thing ive ever read, what the fuck is wrong with a poll?
I'll just insert the conclusion I put in the document that you probably didn't read: C: ‘This is too long I don’t want to read it’
A: Alright. Basically, there is now a group of people elected every month. Those people are part of parties. If a party has majority support in the council, the leader of that party becomes mayor. The council makes laws and lets the mayor take out money. The mayor is still in charge of managing police, building and interacting with citizens, but now has more people to be accountable to.
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